Curse

dreamhunk · Mar 29, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i think this is one of the best ideas on this or any thread.

i am completely PVE and still find things to do besides farming.

i also have a permanent character in presear for vacations and expect to keep a new character in the Cantha monestary as Gaile said itwas even nicer than

presear.

If that was the case you would not have this!

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=12840

Loviatar · Mar 29, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

When I am talking about locked out I mean the elite missions. I think everyone should has access ro them just not pvp guilds who hold towns. That is my bad i should have been more clear. it is is forcing people to do what they don't want to do.

.

hi this is not a flame or a put down.

have you read carefully the descriptions of the (very few) locked missions/quests?

they are bonus areas not needed for the game like the favor areas in chapter one.

jeff said they are the toughest areas by far and only a truly elite group will survive in them (great loot though).

what i am trying to say is that they are extras not needed for the gamer to do to complete and for most of them will never know about or miss them.

also almost all the casual gamers entering would be killed as quickly as the first people entering the UW were except this will be even harder.

EDIT

YOU POSTED ABOVE ME

Quote:

If that was the case you would not have this!

how does my being completely PVE have anything to do with a RP petition?

dreamhunk · Mar 29, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

hi this is not a flame or a put down.

have you read carefully the descriptions of the (very few) locked missions/quests?

they are bonus areas not needed for the game like the favor areas in chapter one.

jeff said they are the toughest areas by far and only a truly elite group will survive in them (great loot though).

what i am trying to say is that they are extras not needed for the gamer to do to complete and for most of them will never know about or miss them.

also almost all the casual gamers entering would be killed as quickly as the first people entering the UW were except this will be even harder.

sorry for the ramble

If it is a bonous everyone should have access to it. Not just a pvp guild of any type!

Loviatar · Mar 29, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

If it is a bonous everyone should have access to it. Not just a pvp guild of any type!

a bonus by definition is an extra above and beyond what id expected.

work extra hard and get a bonus if you are lucky

the full game is there and a few elite missions are a bonus to the few for hard work.

i received a PM from Alex Weekes on the PVP issue in the game.

i asked him if i would be forced to do ANY pvp in the game as i preferred PVE.

his response was a flat

*NO BUT YOUR GAME EXPERIENCE MAY BE ENHANCED IF YOU DO*

unless he is lying you can have a full game experience without a single pvp moment

i am waiting to see how much things change on just what we saw this weekend.

think back to the difference between the old BWE and the final release last year.

plus we saw only a tiny amount of the content that the game will have.

i will wait til release

WasAGuest · Mar 29, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Well now for a long time I was one of the voices crying out about unfairness towards PvE but after thinking it over very carefully I've determined that they do the best they can to give everyone what they want. The reason PvP is the way it is is because PvPers have to bring their own content to the game. Honestly there are only so many interations of death matches and capture the flag you can run before it gets old. We PvE people on the other hand get new weapons and armor and monsters every time they make a new game not to mention the periodic updates and add ons.

I think the best bet is for the PvE population to find ways to enjoy what we have been given just like the PvP people have to do.

This may be more true then we care to realise. Look at what is being said and then look at what Anet says they want to do.

"The reason PvP is the way it is is because PvPers have to bring their own content to the game."

If they, Anet, can happily merge the two play groups (which will never happen 100% no matter how hard they try*) they can much easier and more cheaply put out expansions/stand alone games every six months. That leaves them with mostly art work and reall, really thin writting needed.
It's said here and you can see it in any PvP based game, art first (game engine), story thrown in for a reason to fight and little or no content or creativity needed. Just rehash what's been there before.

Now look at Factions. Jade Quarry for example is the same old PvP game rehashed, or as Ensign put it, Random Arena in a clown suit. Story line is about an ongoing conflict with some "old" dude stiring up trouble... sounds a lot like a UT PvP game to me. Extremely thin at best, and we've all aready agreed on that.

* No matter what Anet does, they will never be able to please pure PvEers or Pure PvPers. Those in the middle ground will be happy though. Saying goes, can't please everyone is true in everything.

I think our friend Str0b0 may have hit it though. It makes since to me as to why Anet is trying so hard to make such two different groups come together.

They advertised a rpg* with PvP. Said they would release a new chapter every 6 months. Anet looks at this, and says no way can we do it. So, they reverse the play goals and make it a PvP with rpg elements and can now get away with thinner content... since PvP does in fact, bring it's own content - the players.

For those that didn't see the FPE invite email, it mentioned GW as being a role playing game with some PvP play. It boasted about the MMORPG awards it had won, and more. Only mentioned PvP once... completely misleading, in fact my brother fussed at me about it after apparently getting slapped down in one of the missions. lol - Needless to say, he wont be buying any of the GW games after that.

konohamaru heaven · Mar 29, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

When I am talking about locked out I mean the elite missions. I think everyone should has access ro them just not pvp guilds who hold towns. That is my bad i should have been more clear. it is is forcing people to do what they don't want to do.

When you look at jeff stat ments you hear nothing about pve or rpg for that matter. all you really hear is pvp and what pvp will get.

I also think think you asume to fast. I am far from a type of guy who thinks he knows everything.

Now if anet cares so much why is the things that Pve want are not a addressed. For exmple the EOE update who are they really crating too. You are having pvp players saying this is not an RPG game, it is a pvp!

there is very little role playing in GW game, I only see more pvp.

Don't quote me on it, but I am sure there will still be a pve way of earning faction for elite missions as there was in the FPE.

Please explain more on the EoE in pve subject.

Jeff I think is more of a PvP guy, but Gaile is neutral and talks about both unlike Jeff (I have heard the same info about jeff as you I believe).

~konohamaru

Rayea · Mar 29, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

dreamhunk, try poping into the int districts, i here they sometimes even get a roleplayed funeral

ok, i like many others am a pve player, and from that pve perspective, i see factions as nice eye candy that i have to make a wamo or at least a warrior whattever to be able to finish....
i say this becase...

every skill balance i have seen so far is dedicated to fixing what unorthadox and creative (sarcasme off) PvP players have busted up.
the few fixes we (pvE) people DO see are henchie AI or fixes for exploits that make it easier to do a mission....making a skill read or do what it says it does ect.

no, theres another reason why PvE peeps screamed like scallded kittens when skills are fixed by the clean-up-crew.
its because we use those skills usually on a daily basis to just stay alive in game.
were not using them to gank another player, nor to allow some other part of our team to be able to pull off some seriously stupid maouver that will mean that the mission is a sucsess.
were simply using them as part of our day to day existance.

now i do not know that much about programin, code ect, but i do know that there are scripts that can be implementer *in one area*
that they can be done by even a simple programmer, depending on the games language.
just look at the arena scripts for neverwinter...on servers that use the HCR (HardCoreRuleset), when you die, you loose exp, maybe items, maybe everytihgn you have on, and you even end up in the Fudge (temporary limo till you ether pay up or get rezzed)
now the whole of these worlds work like that...EXCEPT for the arena...once inside the area of affect for the arena, you die and get ressed with no exp loss, no item loss, NOTHING.

now, who is to say that they (a net ect) could simply not have used this kind of thinking to Fix the damn PvP busted skills.
no more PvE sreaming boiled kitties wanting their skillsets back the way they were...
no more PvE elemntalists jumping off the higest mount in the shiverpeaks, cause they are now one toon UNIT ELITE run-away! merchants...

its simple realy (and yes, i know that simple solutions create complex problems)
inside the arenas, x skill does exactly what the team need it to for it to be ballanced for the PvP environment...
OUTSIDE the arenas, the same skill now does what it always has for the PvE environment....

(oh, and dreamhunk, i think the proffesor tital part the other guy was happy about, and that you are refering to isnt his real world tital, but his forum tital..i was a walking big grin when i made proffessor ^^ but thats cause it reminds me of Dr Who and Ace always calling him proffessor

)

Loviatar · Mar 29, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

They advertised a rpg* with PvP. Said they would release a new chapter every 6 months. Anet looks at this, and says no way can we do it. So, they reverse the play goals and make it a PvP with rpg elements and can now get away with thinner content... since PvP does in fact, bring it's own content - the players.

hi

we seem to have different points of view on several things.

if i might toss this idea (opinion?) into the mix?

i see this going for several years and at 2 chapters a year each with a full year of work i think of chapter 1 as the bare bones starting point

chapter 2 as starting to flesh things out a small bit

and chapter 3 as where we start to get some of the frills so to speak.

i dont expect it to turn into a full fledged MMORPG but over time i think you will see gaps fill in some of the (to me) gaping holes

just an opinion and i have asbestos jammies on

WasAGuest · Mar 29, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

hi

we seem to have different points of view on several things.

if i might toss this idea (opinion?) into the mix?

i see this going for several years and at 2 chapters a year each with a full year of work i think of chapter 1 as the bare bones starting point

chapter 2 as starting to flesh things out a small bit

and chapter 3 as where we start to get some of the frills so to speak.

i dont expect it to turn into a full fledged MMORPG but over time i think you will see gaps fill in some of the (to me) gaping holes

just an opinion and i have asbestos jammies on

asbestos jammies... lol

Actually, if I read what you said correctly, then we agree. I'm not the best at getting what's in my head put into words.

Chapter 1 was the platform. Chatper 2 the rest of what should have been in Chapter 1. Chapter 3 and so on, filling in the gaps. Right?

Doing it this way, would allow Anet to keep the player base buying the "additions". It also fits into saying a year to make Chapter. That's not a lot of time for a game this size. Look at the sheer amount of art work put into it. Keeping in mind also, I'm sure most of the designers are not living at the office (/shudders at the thought). I'm sure most are working 40-50 hour weeks with vacation and off time as normal. So, a year isn't much time. And that goes right back to what Str0b0 had said.
By bringing the play styles closer, they can afford to let slide some of the content (not all, but a good deal of it). And, with that in mind, look at Factions. It's almost (almost, note that) all a rehash of what we've seen before, except the art work in it obviously.

Anyway, just a thought. Not knocking Anet for this, if it is what they are doing, it was a smart business descision, even though in the mean time, you've got a lot of ticked off pure PvEers reguardless of the opinions of others.

Loviatar · Mar 29, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

asbestos jammies... lol

Actually, if I read what you said correctly, then we agree. I'm not the best at getting what's in my head put into words.

Chapter 1 was the platform. Chatper 2 the rest of what should have been in Chapter 1. Chapter 3 and so on, filling in the gaps. Right?

.

we have the news of impending guild storage (when?) possible storage forcollectables possible as Gaile puts it *town clothes* a better trading system items for guild halls and possibly jewelry for pve.

another thing to contemplate was the announcement that not all chapters would have new professins and the growing size of the animation/artwork library which will make areas much more drag and drop instead of having to craft each and every piece of scenery from pardon the pun *ground up*.

i see this as a growing game like a small bare bones community that will grow and add many things that are wanted but the budget (time for work) doesnt allow (YET)

i have hope that in a yearor so the cumulative adding on will make this game something to behold but right now the belts are pretty tight

Kali Ma · Mar 29, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I know they said that, and it might be their intent - but they need to seriously re-evaluate the mechanics they're using if they want that to be a reality, because right now that just isn't the case.

All of my comments regarding PvE players joining up with PvP players have been based on what I've heard and read from Anet, in promo materials, online interviews and forum posts. They often refer to the importance of Coop players, and the suggestion that Coop guilds form alliances with PvP guilds actually came out of a comment I'd read somewhere else - it's not solely my idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Incorrect. It behooves a guild to be in a *faction* with lots of PvP-based guilds that can claim territory.

I don't understand why we're debating on this point. According to Anet's promo, the only players who have access to the Elite Coop Missions are those who are *in an Alliance* which owns the towns that the mission portals are in. Doesn't matter if my guild is Kurzick or not, unless it's in one of the Alliances that actually has a chance of owning those portals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you want to powergame the system to gain control of the best cities, the technique is fairly simple:

Create a massive faction farming alliance of 1000 people who contribute to the alliance standing pot. This will maximize your standing on the alliance ladder and give you control of the best cities available.

Make sure that your alliance is composed of serious farming guilds, not casual players. Faction is going to need to be farmed like it's a job if you want to stay on the top.

Refine the farming of repeatable quests to an art so that you can gain faction more quickly as in individual. Train your alliance in how to run these missions to really push that alliance standing.

Join whichever faction has the strongest PvP presence - avoid the PvE favored faction. During the FPE this was the Kurzicks. Not only does that faction control more territory more consistently, but the competition on the ladder will be thinner, making your job of maintaining the top spot easier.

Wow, that's a pretty bleak picture you paint there. Talk about sapping all the joy out of PvE. Yet you don't think there's any merit to a PvE guild joining in an Alliance with good PvP guilds... or rather, that it would be unwise for serious PvP players to ally with an entire PvE faction, let alone a guild.

So what exactly are genuine PvE players supposed to do then - just give up all hope of ever playing the Elite Coop Missions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's how the game works right now. If you don't like how that works, complain vigorously about it.

Or simply don't purchase it. Unfortunately, most of what I'm hearing in this thread is pretty discouraging.

Loviatar · Mar 29, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

So what exactly are genuine PvE players supposed to do then - just give up all hope of ever playing the Elite Coop Missions?
.

since i am in the non elite PVE only catagory i will do the following.

first since ALEX WEEKES told me i could play the game without being forced to pvp if i wished to avoid it i will simply go for PVE quests and missions.

anything essential to completing the game will be accessable to the casual gamer who does not demand everything without exception.

after finishing the all PVE content i will look at the mixed content.

if i dont like that i will read a book or play another game until chapter 3 arrives.

hopefully there will be a lot to do without pvp

Kali Ma · Mar 29, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

In close, the point of view I see constantly from those that enjoy PvE and PvP is that Factions is going to be great. Oddly, that's what I keep saying and keep getting ripped for saying. As the conversation grows, those that ripped me for saying Factions is great for people that enjoy both are suddenly saying the same thing or saying the game is competitive based (PvP - and again what I had said before). I have also heard time and again, that PvE is easy and is nothing but a farm-fest. I agree with that as well and when offering up possible improvements to the PvE game, "Stop signs" are placed up with no way around them. Instead of shooting down any and all possible improvements to the game, how about some suggestions that do not pit players vs players.

Hallelujah... someone who understands.

WasAGuest, I completely agree with just about all of your points, both about PvE as a whole and about the tenor of this thread. As long as you're a genuine fan of PvE, then no matter what you say, however constructive and positive, or destructive and negative, is going to get shat on and torn to pieces around here.

I at one point lost my cool during this thread, just after having put up with some elite PvP fanatic calling me a c-nt wh0re during a quest in the FPE and then came here to read Ensign's combative and condescending deconstruction of my simple attempts to encourage Ecksor and tell her/him not to worry, and completely went off on a holy tirade. Then ended up deleting 90% of the post because the truth is... it's not going to change a thing. Nothing you say here is going to make a bit of difference, and Ensign is not going to see things from your perspective, because he's right and you're wrong. So you either give in to his and the bandwagoneers obviously superior intellects and understanding of what Guild Wars actually is, or just walk away...

You see, they're playing PvP right now, in this discussion. And they're build is better than ours. Cooperation, encouragement, understanding, empathy, common ground... they don't understand what those mean. PvE is simply either a means to an end, or a waste of time. We are "Carebears" and they rule. GG.

Ascension · Mar 29, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I honestly think there will be no problem with this issue. It comes down to a large section of the playerbase (as a whole) being idiots. That is the greatest hurdle for the game, not silly PvP and PvE tags.

Ghull Ka · Mar 30, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Ma

So what exactly are genuine PvE players supposed to do then - just give up all hope of ever playing the Elite Coop Missions?

Judging from what they've told us and from what we've seen. Yeah.

dreamhunk · Mar 30, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Yea know everyone in the gaming company knows RPG are the biggest money makers as games. Anet has alot of support from fans all around. Even if they added in good rpg or told the fans they need time work on it. There is alot of fans who would wait till it is done.

They have the chance to really rock the market. What are they doing they are killing their fans base. I would rather see Anet take the time to make a good game. It is really not hard to get a good RPG writer. They already have alot of settings. If Anet has good PRG anet will have a good income.

I think Anet needs focus on making a good RPG, The pvp needs work but there is alot of people playing it. However anet needs to be looking at their fans base. If they don't they are going to lose it. How good will their mmorpg be if the next chapters are pvp. I would rather have Anet delay their product for few more months and have a good quility game.

For the amount of time Anet puts in to each chapter, they can come out with a RPG. That is not depended on just pvp to keep people happy. I personly think if that is the case it is a mangent problems that is effectng the game.

Another thing don't lose your cooler, truth always speaks for it self. Just bring the facts to the table.

P.S.

I would pay extra money on a chapter that has strong RPG for guild WARS. if Anet did a another just sequal to the first chapter I would buy it. I just want to have a fun time playing the game.

As for the above posts I am going to let people think about the reasons what I put that post up there.I am just not in the mood right to fully type and explain what I mean. I want to see Anet make qaulity product. In fact I will stand by them if they do. They have a good start, I want them to go all the way. I buy the CE only because i beleave their ideas.

As for pvp players the more RPG players you put down the less support Anet will have. You don't know if the pve game is the only thing that is keeping anet afloat. The pvp you love maybe pushed out the door, with they pve players people.

Anet needs to listen to it fans with in reason! everyone is important.

konohamaru heaven · Mar 30, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

They have the chance to really rock the market. What are they doing they are killing their fans base. I would rather see Anet take the time to make a good game. It is really not hard to get a good RPG writer. They already have alot of settings. If Anet has good PRG anet will have a good income.

They have rocked the market with the release of Guild Wars. The game does have a good income it left WoW out in the cold at its release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

For the amount of time Anet puts in to each chapter, they can come out with a RPG. That is not depended on just pvp to keep people happy. I personly think if that is the case it is a mangent problems that is effectng the game.

They did put in alot of stuff for the people that likes to play PvE and they are trying to keep both PvE and PvP characters satisfied. I have not seen a single thing that they have done to satisfy the PvP player more than the PvE player so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

As for pvp players the more RPG players you put down the less support Anet will have. You don't know if the pve game is the only thing that is keeping anet afloat. The pvp you love maybe pushed out the door, with they pve players people.

Every RPG game has PvP players that put down PvE type players because they don't like to PvE so this sort of thing is not new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

Anet needs to listen to it fans with in reason! everyone is important.

ArenaNet does listen to its fanbase otherwise they would not respond on the fanistes and there would be no Gaile/Frog Chats.In various other RPGs I have never seen any company go to this extent to hear what their players have to say.

konohamaru heaven · Mar 30, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

They have the chance to really rock the market. What are they doing they are killing their fans base. I would rather see Anet take the time to make a good game. It is really not hard to get a good RPG writer. They already have alot of settings. If Anet has good PRG anet will have a good income.

They have rocked the market with the release of Guild Wars. The game does have a good income it left WoW out in the cold at its release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

For the amount of time Anet puts in to each chapter, they can come out with a RPG. That is not depended on just pvp to keep people happy. I personly think if that is the case it is a mangent problems that is effectng the game.

They did put in alot of stuff for the people that likes to play PvE and they are trying to keep both PvE and PvP characters satisfied. I have not seen a single thing that they have done to satisfy the PvP player more than the PvE player so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

As for pvp players the more RPG players you put down the less support Anet will have. You don't know if the pve game is the only thing that is keeping anet afloat. The pvp you love maybe pushed out the door, with they pve players people.

Every RPG game has PvP players that put down PvE type players because they don't like to PvE so this sort of thing is not new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

Anet needs to listen to it fans with in reason! everyone is important.

ArenaNet does listen to its fanbase otherwise they would not respond on the fanistes and there would be no Gaile/Frog Chats.In various other RPGs I have never seen any company go to this extent to hear what their players have to say.

ArenaNet has been having us alpha members work our butts off on various tasks which I am not allowed to mention. If you have any suggestions feel free to post them in the proper board since ArenaNet staff do read the fansites.

~Konohamaru

=HT=Ingram · Mar 30, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Actually It has already been discussed... One new service that may well pop up is buying alliance access to elite areas. Many HUGE guild alliance are already planning this as a gold maker... Controlling an area in order to get access to the elite area for missions and brokering that access to those that want it... I don't approve of this, but I can see it happening. There are other things Anet can do to have regular folks gain access to the elite areas. Namely The Temple of Ages model. basically Alliance with access would be able to go there easily. But if you don't have access you would have to make a pledge of faction or gold to gain access to the area. IE something like 5000 faction would be appropriate to have the gods grant access to the region without control. Maybe not exactly that, but you get the idea. We already know from the /kneel shrines around Cantha that there are lots more options now at said shrines then ever before. Why not extend that to allow access to elite areas for some game cost. Just like in ToA.
Its something that will be addressed as time goes by if Anet sees Alliances brokering access to make gold in game, it will be something they Nerf for them by making it accessible in other ways for the rest of the community, so as not to allow the brokers to exploit an unfair advantage over others.

WasAGuest · Mar 30, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Actually It has already been discussed... One new service that may well pop up is buying alliance access to elite areas. Many HUGE guild alliance are already planning this as a gold maker... Controlling an area in order to get access to the elite area for missions and brokering that access to those that want it... I don't approve of this, but I can see it happening. There are other things Anet can do to have regular folks gain access to the elite areas. Namely The Temple of Ages model. basically Alliance with access would be able to go there easily. But if you don't have access you would have to make a pledge of faction or gold to gain access to the area. IE something like 5000 faction would be appropriate to have the gods grant access to the region without control. Maybe not exactly that, but you get the idea. We already know from the /kneel shrines around Cantha that there are lots more options now at said shrines then ever before. Why not extend that to allow access to elite areas for some game cost. Just like in ToA.
Its something that will be addressed as time goes by if Anet sees Alliances brokering access to make gold in game, it will be something they Nerf for them by making it accessible in other ways for the rest of the community, so as not to allow the brokers to exploit an unfair advantage over others.

So the simplest, yet most unforgiving fix for this mess, is to make all the Elite drops "customized" for the person it drops for. That way they can't sell it and exploit the access and monopoly they have. Then, allow all faction allied (Luxon or Kurzick) people access to it. In other words, if the city is under Kurzick control, all Kurzick alliances have access to it regaurdless of alliance ties or not. Thus, still giving a purpose for the border moving and silly faction point farming they seem to want us to do.

The above ToA example isn't bad, and applied to faction access vs alliance only access, would make it a more open market on the elite missions. Alliances in control, get in free. Faction members not in the alliance pay 1k to 5k to a shrine (thus none of it goes to the alliance in control, or further helping them stay on top).

I wouldn't like the customized drops much, but if it stops monopolies from destroying the game balance in they way mentioned above, then I'll take it. Most of the green drops I get anyway, stay within my guild. I'm totally against any kind of payment system that makes the already large and powerful alliances richer or more powerful (ie, giving them faction points).

I'll go post this in Sanitarium as well, as Konohamaru (curious as to what language that word comes from, my tongue stumbles all over it as I'm terrible with other languages - been trying for years to learn Spanish and haven't been able too) suggests. Though I'm wary it'll make a difference - maybe and hopefully I'll get proved wrong.